Philosophy [Long as shit entry]
Jan. 31st, 2006 03:59 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
I should almost certainly be doing my HW for tomorrow, but instead I’m finding that I absolutely must reflect here about my philosophy class.
Which was a rather morbid class today since we were talking a lot about death and turning family members in for murder- whether or not we would on the latter. Interesting conversation.
At any rate, it was the death one that was rather interesting to me. We’ve been talking about The Apology [Plato, Death of Socrates] since basically the second day of class. One of the things Socrates says is that to fear death is to think yourself wiser than you are because how are you to know that death is something to be feared? To fear anything, by that right, is rather silly because we don’t know for certain that it will turn out badly. By rights, we don’t know anything for certain, so why fear it? We certainly don’t know for certain the sun will rise tomorrow, but why lose sleep over it?
As the class goes on, I end up with this odd look on my face for whatever reason. So the prof asks why [he’s pretty cool like that]. So is tart talking about maybe it’s not so much the fear that matters, but not caring so much about being afraid. I said that I know I’m afraid of a lot of things, I’m afraid of rejection, of not being accepted. But at the same time, I can’t let that fear run me and stop me from believing in the things I do, stop me from caring. He asked for an example, I said gay rights was something important to me that I know not everyone agrees with.
So he asked if I were surrounded by people who were going to kill me if I didn’t renounce that, but would spare me if I did—Would I renounce my convictions? I don’t see how I could. Naturally, I don’t want to die. But could I honestly go back on something I believe in so strongly? No. I don’t even see that as a choice. Hell, I’d do anything physically possible not to die, talk them out of it, run, fight, whatever. But to give up what I believe, now that would be a great loss.
Would human rights be something so terrible to die for? My classmates didn’t seem to really get it. When I said that dropping my beliefs wasn’t really a choice, one guy had to point out that really, it was still an option. My retort was that you’d have to be a wimpy coward for that.
I’m not a strong person; I’m a mousey, scared person most of the time. But no one has the right to demand your life in exchange for your beliefs. Or to injure you for them, insult you, etc. Those things I believe most strongly in are those I will not back down for. Not now, not ever.
I still see everyone as the same, all as people. How could I stand down and say I don’t care about hate crime, don’t care about a kid being tormented about being gay, don’t care about someone struggling with their gender identity, don’t care about someone of a different religion trying to get by as a minority without constant taunts. Maybe not everyone sees it, but these things do happen. They could happen to so many of the people I hold dear, they could happen to me.
I may be weak, but they’re my convictions. Maybe if I did die for them, nothing would be accomplished. But maybe one person would see things a little differently.
Socrates didn’t want to die, but he wouldn’t back down and stop being who he was, doing what he did. Never would he stop asking questions. So he died for them, but not without a damn good argument.
That’s really something to learn- don’t let go. Ever.
Which was a rather morbid class today since we were talking a lot about death and turning family members in for murder- whether or not we would on the latter. Interesting conversation.
At any rate, it was the death one that was rather interesting to me. We’ve been talking about The Apology [Plato, Death of Socrates] since basically the second day of class. One of the things Socrates says is that to fear death is to think yourself wiser than you are because how are you to know that death is something to be feared? To fear anything, by that right, is rather silly because we don’t know for certain that it will turn out badly. By rights, we don’t know anything for certain, so why fear it? We certainly don’t know for certain the sun will rise tomorrow, but why lose sleep over it?
As the class goes on, I end up with this odd look on my face for whatever reason. So the prof asks why [he’s pretty cool like that]. So is tart talking about maybe it’s not so much the fear that matters, but not caring so much about being afraid. I said that I know I’m afraid of a lot of things, I’m afraid of rejection, of not being accepted. But at the same time, I can’t let that fear run me and stop me from believing in the things I do, stop me from caring. He asked for an example, I said gay rights was something important to me that I know not everyone agrees with.
So he asked if I were surrounded by people who were going to kill me if I didn’t renounce that, but would spare me if I did—Would I renounce my convictions? I don’t see how I could. Naturally, I don’t want to die. But could I honestly go back on something I believe in so strongly? No. I don’t even see that as a choice. Hell, I’d do anything physically possible not to die, talk them out of it, run, fight, whatever. But to give up what I believe, now that would be a great loss.
Would human rights be something so terrible to die for? My classmates didn’t seem to really get it. When I said that dropping my beliefs wasn’t really a choice, one guy had to point out that really, it was still an option. My retort was that you’d have to be a wimpy coward for that.
I’m not a strong person; I’m a mousey, scared person most of the time. But no one has the right to demand your life in exchange for your beliefs. Or to injure you for them, insult you, etc. Those things I believe most strongly in are those I will not back down for. Not now, not ever.
I still see everyone as the same, all as people. How could I stand down and say I don’t care about hate crime, don’t care about a kid being tormented about being gay, don’t care about someone struggling with their gender identity, don’t care about someone of a different religion trying to get by as a minority without constant taunts. Maybe not everyone sees it, but these things do happen. They could happen to so many of the people I hold dear, they could happen to me.
I may be weak, but they’re my convictions. Maybe if I did die for them, nothing would be accomplished. But maybe one person would see things a little differently.
Socrates didn’t want to die, but he wouldn’t back down and stop being who he was, doing what he did. Never would he stop asking questions. So he died for them, but not without a damn good argument.
That’s really something to learn- don’t let go. Ever.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-31 10:47 pm (UTC)Fear and a desire for life does not make a person weak. It makes them human. One can be strong and fearful at the same time.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-31 10:51 pm (UTC)One of Socrates other things was knowing when you are unwise- that's human wisdom. "Know thyself". KNow your limits. "The unexamined life is not worth living."
no subject
Date: 2006-01-31 11:01 pm (UTC)And anyway, don't charactize yourself as weak. Indeed, know your strengths and weaknesses, but no one is totally without strength.
Also, "Know thyself" came from Apollo and his Temple and his Oracle at Delphi. And while there's wisdom there, he can be a dangerous model to follow.
no subject
Date: 2006-01-31 11:06 pm (UTC)Weak has always been one of thing things I've characterized myself as, it suits in a twisted sort of way. I'm a better follower than a leader, though my intellect would like to lead. I have all the intelligence and knowledge to lead, but constantly find myself without teh strength for it. That's why I use the word weak, it's my frustration coming out.
Weighing things is good to a point, but in other areas when a quick decision is needed, I fall prey to indecisiveness and then it's a fault. Anything can have two meanings, really.
"Know Thyself" is therefore logically tempered by the other phrase at the Oracle at Delphi- "Nothing in Excess".
no subject
Date: 2006-01-31 11:13 pm (UTC)As much as your reasoning with self-characterization makes sense, I still maintain that no person is weak as long as they have something they can call a strength or profeciency. In your case, your intellect is a strength. Thus, by my logic, you're not weak.
And as an aside, whether one leads or follows, it doesn't really denote levels of strength or weakness to me necessarily. Sure, the strong can lead and the weak can follow, but that's not always the case. Sure, the leader is strong, but for every strong leader, there's usually a strong advisor.
Touche on the Oracle's motto. And I agree there can be excess of thought, but I see that as a downside to hypercharged mental action rather than flimsy will.
I love all these icons.
Date: 2006-01-31 11:22 pm (UTC)So I didn't specify weak strangthwise because it sounded silly. It's still a weakness, certainly.
And while there may be a strong advisor, someone who often fills that role never feels quite right in the spot of a leader. The entire contigent of followers isn't going to want advice, they want things clearly and simply stated. I can't do that. I talk too much, typically. I want to take something and expand on it, make it perfectly understood from about 6 angles. And hey, it's great for thinking, but sucks for leading.
As for the Oracle [again], could not those downsides be lessened by a firmer grasp of 'Nothing in Excess'?
One of Socrates's other things [damn, waht's the point in reading the thing now, I've told you nigh on half of it!] is that if you truly know something is good, you'll do it. If you truly know it's bad, you won't. Which comes into dilema with things like smoking and drinking, we know those things are hell on your lungs and liver respectively, but something about them must appear good for someone to do them.
The same could go for over-thinking, if you truly know it's harmful, you won't do it.
Oh me too. But in the end you win there because I don't have a pay account
Date: 2006-01-31 11:31 pm (UTC)I know thinking too much isn't good. I know worrying and stressing out isn't good. But can I actually stop myself from thinking a thought, from feeling a worry, from feeling stress? Certainly not. I could ignore it, supress it, repress it even, but that doesn't change the fact that I feel it. And thus, in feeling it, I do it.
"Nothing is excess" is very sensible concept. But I feel it can't be realistically applied to everything. Our feelings and many times our immediate and natural thoughts are beyond our control. So if they inundate us with excess, can we truly blame ourselves?
And who's to say there's not a silver lining? Yes you can think and worrying yourself sick, but the bright is that you have keen introspection, knowledge of self and often times, a good grasp of your own pysche.
It goes without saying about advisors, but I wasn't trying to say that they could lead. My point was that even though they can't lead, they can still be strong in a following position.
moo ha ha ha ha, but of course.
Date: 2006-01-31 11:40 pm (UTC)I suppose most stress is caused by fear, often fear of failure, rejection, etc. So he does touch on the subject a bit- referring back to my original post. Lol. You don't know the outcome will be bad, but you fear it will be, so you stress. Then often stress causes you to work harder [if you've not driven yourself mad with it yet] and can prevent failure more easily. Yet in cases of say a fear of rejection causing stress, then the stress doesn't do much good, yeah? Ideally [lord know life would be easier if it were practical!], you wouldn't allow yourself to stress over things that it won't help a bit with. Ideally. In an ideal world- the ideal and reality are the same. In Reality, they are different. Or however that goes.
Thinking and gaining introspection is one thing, think yourself sick seems to bea whole other ballpark. What good comes from making yourself ill? Think a ton, sure. But that ideal world again would go against the illness bit.
...it'd be nice not to have to rely on someone else to lead sometimes though.
To my credit, my icons were painstakingly chosen whereas you could post yours willynilly
Date: 2006-01-31 11:47 pm (UTC)<3
I think it harder, almost, to choose out of 90 than 6
Date: 2006-02-01 12:54 am (UTC)Arguably, yes. But you have a greater variety, whereas I do not since I have a nonpay account
Date: 2006-02-01 05:34 am (UTC)Good times.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-01 01:09 am (UTC)We're going to have to stop being mates, then. I cant live in mortal fear of one of you giving me detention all my bloody life.
Now Hermiting Himself,
Off Somewhere in the Barbados,
Padsy
*smirk*
Date: 2006-02-01 04:11 am (UTC)Well, Chris might. But I doubt it would be the unfun sort. *wink*
By the Way...
Date: 2006-02-01 05:26 am (UTC)Just so you know.
Re: By the Way...
Date: 2006-02-01 05:28 am (UTC)Sponge bath me to purity, baby
Date: 2006-02-01 05:52 pm (UTC)Its brilliant how with one Paddles!comment, a philosophical debate becomes a bad porno.
I fucken love me.
Extremely Full of Himself,
And Awaiting a Spongebath,
Padsy